tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post1365166571595978270..comments2023-11-18T08:09:26.056+13:00Comments on Abandoned Footnotes: Aztec Political ThoughtXavier Marquezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-65668071834914785062019-02-03T16:55:57.998+13:002019-02-03T16:55:57.998+13:00"...and yet as the enemy he is indispensable...."...and yet as the enemy he is indispensable. There is something profoundly alien in this thought..."<br /><br />This has been and still is true today. Some societies define themselves only in opposition to something else. For example, the USA exist only in opposition to Nazi Germany, then the Soviet Union, then Saddam Hussein, then Iran, now China.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-50153324788338149412019-02-03T03:22:12.707+13:002019-02-03T03:22:12.707+13:00You are both right, each arguing from your own cul...You are both right, each arguing from your own cultural perspective, and wrong from the other. Context matters so much; that's the most important thing to understand from this article. With some helpful context in hand, you can have more polite and interesting conversations where sharing ideas fosters growth instead of acrimony.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-29642109501282229272017-01-29T05:24:16.655+13:002017-01-29T05:24:16.655+13:00Superb! "Sacralisation of social life through...Superb! "Sacralisation of social life through extraordinary emotions"--opens up whole perspectives for me as i can see how to port this into understanding of street theatre film promotional techniques 1920s Ballyhoo--the drawing of ludic street spaces of intense theatricality quite disconnected from considerations of any ideological aims of films.Fabrice Lyczba:https://www.blogger.com/profile/11569402537222571893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-66711844339033470312016-10-11T07:01:04.375+13:002016-10-11T07:01:04.375+13:00As an active participant of "Aztec" (Mex...As an active participant of "Aztec" (Mexica, please) ritual and ceremony, the headspace it creates is VERY MUCH REAL. And these are beliefs still held by many people.<br />There is spiritual transcendence, ego death etc. It is no wonder that the mushroom, the flesh of the gods, grows in Mexico. Mexica ceremonial practices, such as danza and the temezcalli, are transformational and deep, transcendent experiences that , if one isn't mentally prepared enough, can lead to a sort of psychosis as gained from after doing hallucinogens (hallucinogenic psychosis). <br /><br />If one doesn't "get it", then Aztec danza just seems like people in costumes dancing in a circle.<br />How sad.<br /><br />Ceremony and ritual involved everyone, because it is a community. Yes, there were consequences to not participating and Tenochtitlan deteriorated, but for the most part, ceremony and ritual were inclusive.<br /><br />Even today in danza, as it was done back then, people dance in concentric circles with the drummmers and altar in the middle. Each danzante embodies a cosmic body, planet , start etc. The altar is the sun or the cosmic creation force (ipamenohuali). We are each within this cosmic dance to keep the movement (ollin) going, the movement made from tension between the sacred world and the normal world, between death and life. These forces exist independantly of one another within the same reality (Heraclitus anyone?). <br /><br />The best warriors (for all dancers and all people are warriors in this battle of life, battle of self dignity and protection of our people and families) dance within the middle circle, while women, children and the elderly dance in the outside circles to keep the harmony. <br />We dance in male/female order to keep harmony as well, and each of th efour elements plus father sky (ipamenohuali) and mother earth (tonantzin cuatlicue) are included, we greet each of these and we say goodbye so that our dance can be honoring to all.<br /><br />I hope this clears up any misconceptions or at least helps illuminate whatever is troubing in the book.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10608687308097226480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-73454789449926928822016-10-11T06:49:09.298+13:002016-10-11T06:49:09.298+13:00No, cortez was not a liberator. Please don't s...No, cortez was not a liberator. Please don't say such ignorant things like that.<br /><br />Tezcaltlipca and his three other aspects in the form of Huitzilopochtli, Quetzacoatl and Xipe Totec refer to four aspects within the psyche and within a person. The creativity (Huitzi), inner strength and warrior (Quetzal), and transformation , Xipe Totec. <br /><br />Tezcatlipoca is our own self. We are our own enemy, we get in the way of our own victories and so are causers of our own misery. Tezcatlipoca is the darkness we ignore and looms out at night, faces back at us from a mirror. he is there to remind us of the dark side of life and to fight it (Quetzalcoatl) to find the beauty (Huitzilopochtli) for ultimate transformation (Xipe Totec).<br /><br />ANd it's a cycle of ups and downs, as is believed in Hindusim that we are now in the Kali Yuga ready to go to an enlightened era. <br /><br />The Mexica world view is much more sophisticated than white /eurocentric scholars are willing to give them credit for, and us who live Mexica beliefs, ceremony,ritual and philosophy are not considered because we are not 'direct descendents" nor in the white man's academies. <br /><br />All of these beliefs and ceremonys are better understood if one lives them. Aztec danza/dance (ceremonial dance) circles known as Kalpullis or Kallis (neighborhood in Nahuatl) are a good way to start. Some kallis are closed to outsiders, some are open. Most of them you have to know someone to get in. <br /><br />As for the tlatoani, what wasn't mentioned is what tlatoani really means. It means "speaker" or "he who holds the word" (palabra, word). Palabra is not just speaking, but that the words one speaks are medicine and a reflection of the interior state.<br />AS medicine, words can harm or cure. It's better to cure than harm. Harm is done when there's an unchecked Tezcatlipoca within us, not acknowledged.<br /><br />Palbra is to be done. As it is said, so my will be done. Those who have palabra or give palabra and held to their word, and must comply with what they said to remain in harmony with one's word. Word is a reflection of inner mind, so why would you not follow up on words spoken? That is not harmony and is contradictory.<br /><br />So the tlatoani was the word holder for the people he took care of. He dealt with the other villages and nations , politcally. Thats all he had: political power.<br /><br />The real power, as has always been in world history, lays with the priestly class. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10608687308097226480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-68098513383467253372016-10-11T06:40:14.917+13:002016-10-11T06:40:14.917+13:00You did not understand the concept of Tezcatlipoca...You did not understand the concept of Tezcatlipoca and there is so much ignorance. <br />Tezcatlipoca is a real and imagined entity. He is the darkness within us all that we deny and it faces us in the mirror when its too late. Tezcatlipoca is the name to all that which we consider "misforture" or "fortune" but without the maturity and wisdom to realize it is all, and neither good or bad.<br />Tezcatlipoca's message is that we are our own worst enemy. As such, we are also our own best friend.<br />The Mexica world view is distinguished and complex than the God of Johnathon Edwards and American Protestantism. <br /><br />Tezcatlipoca has four aspects, each one relating to aspects within ourselves, society and within the tlatoani. <br /><br />Quetzacoatl, the creative beauty in life. Huitzilopocthli, the action and warrior. Xipe Totect, transformation. and Tezcatlipoca, death and life within one. He is not a Cthulu figure, nor were Aztecs war hungry, mindless people.<br /><br />One can't understand Mexica or Aztec culture without participating in it. Danza azteca and being within a kalpulli (Ceremony clan) is the only way to live this philosophy and, ultimately, undrstand it.<br /><br />Cortez was not a liberator.<br />Please check your ignorance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10608687308097226480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-60522516471870020772014-07-03T08:15:08.703+12:002014-07-03T08:15:08.703+12:00Thanks Anonymous - and thanks for the recommendati...Thanks Anonymous - and thanks for the recommendation. Had not heard of MacGaffey.Xavier Marquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-58677783787420195132014-07-03T03:54:08.847+12:002014-07-03T03:54:08.847+12:00Fascinating review. It sounds like it has somethin...Fascinating review. It sounds like it has something in Common with Wyatt MacGaffey's BaKongo political culture. Anyway thank you for the thought provoking reviewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-68837312815500416582013-11-29T08:35:43.912+13:002013-11-29T08:35:43.912+13:00Prasad, it would not surprise me if they do, thoug...Prasad, it would not surprise me if they do, though the Aztec festivals probably ended in a darker note. Several mesoamerican peoples also engaged in ritual bloodletting (self-mortification) as well as ritual preparation. Xavier Marquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-89676463354843194732013-11-28T22:43:58.925+13:002013-11-28T22:43:58.925+13:00Hi Xavier,
"the swirling movement of process...Hi Xavier, <br />"the swirling movement of processions and the slow turnings of the dancers in the flare of the pine torches; through the long preparation, the long isolation from the routine in the fasting period, the distancing formality of the painting and robing; through the patterns of dance and drum and song etched into the senses and graven into the muscles of throat and calf and thigh, came a shifting in awareness and of the boundaries of the self"<br />I wonder if ritual scourging by Shias and Tamil worshippers of Ayyappa have similar roles. I have heard similar descriptions by followers of Ayyappa and it was a little surreal to read this description for me !!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16097885223408161578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-4921172537909697702013-11-26T09:51:04.162+13:002013-11-26T09:51:04.162+13:00Francisco, there's probably some of that as we...Francisco, there's probably some of that as well, though it's hard to tell how much from our remaining sources. I've written about these dynamic of ostracism and punishments myself here: <a href="http://abandonedfootnotes.blogspot.com/2012/01/complexity-of-emotion-in-authoritarian.html" rel="nofollow">http://abandonedfootnotes.blogspot.com/2012/01/complexity-of-emotion-in-authoritarian.html</a> So I sympathize with your point in principle. But rituals in Mexica society seem to me about a order of magnitude more intense than anything in any other society I know of - less "opiates" and more like some of the powerful psychodelics the Mexica and other mesoamerican peoples used. And elites were also seduced by the power of the rituals - more so, perhaps, than non-elites. Xavier Marquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-81135988297426843622013-11-26T04:20:45.946+13:002013-11-26T04:20:45.946+13:00Fascinating but I'm not convinced the ritual m...Fascinating but I'm not convinced the ritual mystical payoff, although very real and unifying, was the glue of this society. It seems more likely that people kept going to the ritual because not to participate was to invite ostracism or being one of the sacrificed. A society built on meanness, whether under Jim Crow and slavery, or Hitler, or the society you discuss, treats non-participants as traitors worthy of bad treatment. To avoid bad treatment, one goes along. There are not many Dietrich Bonhoeffer's in most societies, which is how to worst and meanest rulers can do so well for a time. In a word, "fear" of material deprivation no doubt mixed with some psychic payoffs. Not a simple opiate of the Mexica masses, but rather divide/distract-and-conquer. Francisco Nejdanov Solominhttp://gardenvarietydemocraticsocialist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-28120526390111944252013-11-23T10:32:36.936+13:002013-11-23T10:32:36.936+13:00Anonymous, no, I'm not, but after looking it u...Anonymous, no, I'm not, but after looking it up it sounds like someone I should read.Xavier Marquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-9150349206251760722013-11-23T10:32:01.781+13:002013-11-23T10:32:01.781+13:00Thanks Paul! I don't know enough about your re...Thanks Paul! I don't know enough about your reference to Paul to say so, though, a few people have mentioned Mesopotamian gods as similar.Xavier Marquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099356104979121153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-54451038512918785082013-11-23T08:46:01.833+13:002013-11-23T08:46:01.833+13:00you familiar with Rene Girard?you familiar with Rene Girard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-87960191740573707502013-11-23T04:55:59.527+13:002013-11-23T04:55:59.527+13:00Seems like the Mexica lived under Cthulhu. I guess...Seems like the Mexica lived under Cthulhu. I guess bloody Cortéz was indeed a sort of liberator, after all. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35658622.post-38817330668933935102013-11-21T22:18:27.524+13:002013-11-21T22:18:27.524+13:00Fascinating post! Pondering your question on whet...Fascinating post! Pondering your question on whether classical western political thought has a similar concept to the ruler-as-enemy among the Mexicali. Would the desire of the apostle Paul to be "the anathema of Christ" come close?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08227538948497843744noreply@blogger.com